Ideas on Gandalf the White

[Brandon Jones]

Just an idea for us LOTR fans to ponder...what would have become of Gandalf if Saruman had not turned to evil? Would Gandalf have returned from the fight with the Balrog as Gandalf the light-Grey? Or would he have returned at all, since Saruman would have been in a sense, who he should have been?

[Kikishwa]

Just an idea for us LOTR fans to ponder...what would have become of Gandalf if Saruman had not turned to evil? Would Gandalf have returned from the fight with the Balrog as Gandalf the light-Grey? Or would he have returned at all, since Saruman would have been in a sense, who he should have been?

If Saruman had been who he should have been most of the story would have been different. He would have warned everyone the minute Sauron stirred, he would have helped the fellowship on their way to Mordor and Gandalf would never have been put in the position of fighting the Balrog - hence no fall and no ressurrection.


Kikishwa

[Brandon Jones]

Do you feel that perhaps Saruman and Gandalf would have "teamed up" against the power of Sauron? It seems as though Tolkien's writing suggests Saruman always had a slight arrogance to him. I wonder if Saruman would have betrayed Gandalf at the very last moment to obtain power. It would also be interesting to imagine a physical battle between Gandalf and Sauron or Saruman & Sauron. There could be only one victor...I wonder who would hold their own?

[Kikishwa]

Do you feel that perhaps Saruman and Gandalf would have "teamed up" against the power of Sauron? It seems as though Tolkien's writing suggests Saruman always had a slight arrogance to him. I wonder if Saruman would have betrayed Gandalf at the very last moment to obtain power. It would also be interesting to imagine a physical battle between Gandalf and Sauron or Saruman & Sauron. There could be only one victor...I wonder who would hold their own?

In the Silmarillion (and the Unfinished Tales) Tolkien lays out the whole history of Middle-Earth from creation onwards. He also explains the origins and natures of all the beings involved from the creator, ERU, down. Also covered is the origin and true nature of the mission of the Istari.

Yes, Saruman is arrogant, and he didn't like Gandalf, he was jealous of him because Gandalf was the preferred candidate for the leader of the mission and he turned the job down (he didn't feel he had what it took).

The background to the mission of the wizards was that the Ainur (the powers that be) and their lesser followers the Maiar (beings like Gandalf, Saruman, etc) had joined with the Elves and certain faithful races of Men to oppose Sauron (who was a fallen Maiar) and in the warfare that followed they all but 'trashed' Middle-Earth and still hadn't really solved the problem. So the Istari were sent as advisors, and to keep them in line they were made mortal and had their power, knowledge and understanding limited. The end result of this was the wizards were distracted by their new physical existence and lost focus, and to a degree this was also true of Gandalf, although he was the only one to keep faith with his mission.

If Saruman had managed to control his personal failings, then he and Gandalf would have continued as advisors, and advisors alone. They were never there to fight Sauron directly, and since he was non-physical and much more powerful than either of them, there wasn't much point in trying. The whole idea was that with guidance, the mortal inhabitants of Middle-Earth would learn to manage their own affairs without interference by demigods, good or evil.

Tolkien says in his letters that Gandalf's death is the only true act of sacrifice seen in the story. Gandalf chose to 'play by the rules' and accept a mortal's death even while knowing that to do so might be to destroy the only real hope that the enemies of Sauron had to actually win the battle.

By joining Sauron and driving Gandalf to his death Saruman catastrophically altered the balance of the situation. To try to rectify this, and in recognition of his spiritual purity, the Ainur, send Gandalf back with greater power and a mandate to actively interfere in the battle as a counterpart to the role played by Saruman but in the end it is Men (and Hobbits who are kin to Men) who sort the problem out and in doing so claim their independence from interference by the Ainur, who then retire.

The story is more about coming of age and taking responsibility for ones own fate, than battles between wizards.

Kikishwa

[nobby.c]

thats great now it is all a little clearer. I havent read any other tolkien books other than the Hobbit and LOTR trilogy. Definately need to try those other books you mention.
Adding that level of insight to the Trilogy really makes a difference to appreciating the characters.
I tried to read the additional information at the end of The Return of the King but it didnt hold my interest.

Will try harder now that I know what nuggets of info are in there

[Lisa Williams]

One has to remember that Saruman's arrogance had been driving him toward evil for a very long time. According to the timeline in the back of the books, Saruman had been betraying them by looking into the Orthanc stone(palantir) for some 18 years before the trilogy even takes place. I believe that, due to his arrogance, he turned to evil and arrogance is not something you can simply take off like a suit. It takes a great deal of strength of character and, according to Varda (Elbereth), Olorin(Gandalf) was truly stronger. She always vouched for him above Curunir(Saruman).

[Jurious]

For a wizard who had once been so great to fall from grace must have taken some years, I'd have to agree, Lisa - and you present the evidence!

[Brandon Jones]

I can imagine Saruman sitting in Orthanc all those years...brooding and just generally being bored with his powers. He probably started to think he was wiser, more powerful than everyone else and deserved to be in authority. Not just some wizard who looked over mankind sent from the Maia. I love in the film how Christopher Lee looks at Gandalf with that contempt and disgust and says, "Your love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind!"

What I really can't understand is that, Saruman, in ALL his great wisdom...he falls under the power of the Ring just like everyone else. He MUST know that he cannot wield the Ring. So why does he even have a desire for it. He is smart enough to know this fact...I guess he succumbs to the lust of it just like everyone else.

I've also enjoyed how the movie is making the Ring its own character. You can hear it "talk" in several scenes. Calling out to the Nazgul...I think it's very well done.

Hmm the fallen Angel...it's an interessting role to play
Gandalf seems to be in better luck though