Wickerman

[Patricia Smith]

Since I couldn't find a recent thread about this gem, I had to start one, despite being a relative newcomer to the world of Christopher Lee's many films and accomplishments. This film is quite wonderful. One of the most incredible things about it is that it defies that one word, Mc-review type description most reviewers employ these days, a la Siskel & Ebert style (no disrespect meant to the late Mr. Siskel, of course). It is not often that a film is made that traverses time the way this one has.

The issues it brings up concerning religion, and the extremes the adherents of most religions can go to are still relevant today.
Edward Woodward interested me, as he played against type as the innocent, iconoclastic Howie. Intriguing, that he was what was sought, after all - the object was something against all type, as well! And Lord Summerisle was not only chilling, he also was atypical, in that, in his way, he WAS a moral man. His morality was what was best for his people, what kept them happy.
Mr. Lee's Summerisle was enigmatic, to say the least. The viewer is left wondering - did Summerisle merely carry on the practices of the faith of the people to keep them producing the apples? Or did he really believe in the old religion of the people? At the end, one is left wondering...

[Joakim Lundberg]

Hi
Glad you enjoy one of the best films ever with Mr Lee made in the 70's. Lord Summerisle is the Lordship of Summerisle and he is convinced that the old gods will make the crops better for people on the island. He believes in the religion very deeply and so does the people of the island. He looks at things the other way when they burn Sergeant Howie in The Wicker Man. He doesn't look at it as murder he sees it. "Ah finaly the ideal sacrifice to the gods". But does he realy believe in the religion??Yes he does in my opinion. I have watched this film so many times allthough I didn't understood what the film was about when I watched the first time:D . But slowly I understood what the people were up to against Howie and that it acctualy was a big game against Howie with the entire community against him.

Recently this weekend here in Sweden we celebrated midsummer. On midsummereve we stick a large midsummerpole in the ground in the shape of a cross and a crown made of branches on each end of the pole. I have thought about this and I think that it must have been taken from the old religion (allthough it is not may-day festival with a hubby horse). Anyway sorry for going of topic back to "The Wicker Man" this can be further discussed at the sunday chats.

[Alfonso Casal]

The impression that I've always had is that Lord Summerisle both believes in the Old Religion, but ALSO uses it as a form of social control over the Islanders. Notice Miss Rose's glance at him and the flicker that comes over Summerisle's eyes, when Sgt. Howie asserts that if next year's harvest is bad, 'No one less than the King of Summerisle himself will do!"

[Skorpionn]

In addition to Funny Man, I'm now the proud owner of The Wicker Man - can't wait to reacquaint myself.:1roll:

[Matt Gemmell]

Nice to see new people coming to the Wickerman . It's one of my favourite films of all time . The comment on Lord Summerisles morality interested me . I never thought that he was'nt a moral man , he just had a different set of beliefs .
Just because he did'nt adhere to a christian ethos did'nt make him evil of wrong ( misguided perhaps ). In fact I would go so far to say that if the practice of human sacrifice were removed from the picture life on Summerisle would'nt be all that bad .
I think the most interesting aspect of the film is it's treatment of an old time religion in a modern context . I have always had an interest for all types of religion and cannot abide predjudice therefore the story contained in The Wickerman never struck me as horrific up until the finale . Being a devout atheist myself I have the utmost respect for anyone elses beliefs until they cause harm or distress to another .

[Jurious]

I recently saw the 100 minute version of The Wicker Man - and it was very good.

I think the most chilling thing, IMO, was the normality of all the people of Summerisle - they seemed so normal, yet they all had the potential to assist with the sacrifice of the sergeant without remorse or regret.

But it's hard to define whether that is evil, or whether it is a mere factor of their beliefs - if they believe they are doing right, then what can you say about it? You can't call them evil for doing something they deem as completely acceptable.

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean... but I found Lord Summerisle an interesting character. Again, he was very normal, and seemed a very decent man who believed in his cult. I think that the only time his positive, almost cheery characteristics were invaded was when Howie claimed that he would be the only next, fitting sacrifice.

Anyway, I'm not really getting anywhere :P... either way, great film - I hope to own the special edition DVD some time soon! :D

[Joe Skinnell]

I think the most chilling thing, IMO, was the normality of all the people of Summerisle - they seemed so normal, yet they all had the potential to assist with the sacrifice of the sergeant without remorse or regret.  
But it's hard to define whether that is evil, or whether it is a mere factor of their beliefs - if they believe they are doing right, then what can you say about it? You can't call them evil for doing something they deem as completely acceptable.

Interesting logic here. I guess this means the Nazis weren't evil for what they did because they believed they were doing right? Altho religeous beliefs run the full gamat from the mundane to the insane, anyone who would sacrifice another human being in the name of their God has more than a few screws loose. We need to look no further than the modern day example of "martyrdom". I know the Wickerman is just a movie, but the rituals are based on fact.

[Alfonso Casal]

This discussion raises the issue of cultural relativism: To what extent is it correct for one culture to impose their norms on another; or conversely, to what extent is it correct to assume that there are certain universally accepted human values that cannot be violated. At one extreme, some say that it is never correct to view a culture through the lens of another, and that practices such as human sacrifice, cannibalism, etc., can and should be accepted as valid within the context of the culture that practices it.

The cultural relativists would point out that killing in the name of whatever deity, for whatever ultimate purpose is not something limited to 'primitive' peoples or ancient tribes. Christians have killed in the name of god and tortured many a body supposedly to save the victim's soul. Furthermore, it is true that feigned outrage over things such as genital mutilation, suttee, and human sacrifice have often been used as an excuse for imperialism. Economic exploitation frequently hides behind attempts at 'civilizing' 'primitive' peoples. Just look at the Spanish conquest of the Americas. Certainly the Aztecs were savage in their practice of mass human sacrifice. But, once liberated from the threat of having their hearts taken out by an obsidian knife was removed, was being worked to death on sugar plantations any more humane?

On the other hand, one can say that there are basic human values and norms that most civilizations do not violate. Human sacrifice and cannibalism being top of the list. Yet, the Romans, who outlawed human sacrifice and stamped out Druidism brought many who would have been fuel for wicker men back to Rome to face equally grisly fates in the great arena. Similarly, the US government, which takes a dim view of certain religious practices that involve the consumption of hallucinogenics, in the name of freedom of religion, allows the Afro-Caribbean Santeria cult to perform animal sacrifice in its rituals.

Back to Summerisle: I think here the question really depends on the 'king of Summerisle himself.' The people of Summerisle believe what they have been taught to believe from birth. His Lordship (and Miss Rose, also) is a far different story. Does Lord Summerisle really believe, or is he using religion as a mode of social control? Or both? Certainly, we all know from our own lives that it's more than possible for someone to hold two contradictory beliefs at once. Summerisle's grandfather, who was "incredulous of all human good" and who believed "only in science," obviously manipulated the rebirth of paganism to suit his own ends. Rather like the Nazis, many of whom had no particular anti-semitism, but saw attacking Jews as a means to solve social-political problems and achieve economic gain. Parenthetically, it's amazing how many leading Nazis (Heydrich, for example) privately scoffed at their own racial mumbo-jumbo.

So, where does Lord Summerisle stand? Hypocritical opportunist or devout true believer? Both, I think. He enjoys his wealth and comfort, and he clearly knows where it comes from, too. Not from the blessings of Nodens and Nuada, but from the bio-genetic manipulation of "hardy cultivars" suited to the local climate. But, at the same time, the character is sincere when he states how he was taught to "love the music and drama of the old gods." That's what makes Summerisle a complex and fascinating character.

But does that make Summerisle "evil?" I don't know. That makes him a danger to the mainstream culture (and individuals); but does it make him 'evil?" Once again, I don't know.

OK. . . I've said enough someone else should have a go at it now.

[Patricia Smith]

When I mention that Lord Summerisle is a moral man, I am speaking in reference to the fact that he has a well-thought out system of beliefs, not necessarily because he thinks these things are what his people want or do not want to believe.

In his conversation with Howie, he seems to intimate that the "religion" the islanders practice was set up intentionally by his grandfather and father, not only as an alternative to the local church, but also, as a motivation for them, a way for them to justify behavior which would not be justified under, say a Christian belief system (or that of several other religions, either!) It would seem that the earlier Lord Summerisle was a master manipulator - he told the people what they wanted to hear! All they had to do was keep those apples coming.

What is not clear, at least from my viewing of the film, is whether or not the present Lord Summerisle actually believes in this neopagan religion. There appear too many conflicting scenes - sometimes he appears merely to manipulate others; other times, such as the scene with the voice over with the snails (In a way, this was funny and gruesome and several other things I still have NOT been able to place - one of the things I like about this film - it is not a pinpointable film emotionally!), he truly seems to be quite the natural man, in that he does wish to live as the animals, without the encumbrances of a morality that judges constantly.

IMO, what one must be careful of is not to conclude that, because a moral system is judgmental, it is necessarily unhealthy. It truly depends upon the criteria for judgment of behavior and how those criteria are applied to human behavior. IMO, both the villagers and Howie are extremists. Perhaps it is Lord Summerisle who is caught between them - striving to survive, yet, not truly making the connection between what has happened and what is to come, until Howie is put in the Wickerman.

I will have to watch the film again, in order to ascertain Lord Summerisle's reaction at Howie's angst-ridden plea, and warning, as to what should befall him, should the harvest fail once more. I am not sure I saw what some others have seen in the expression on Mr. Lee's face at this point.

As an asided, I have noticed is that anytime anyone speaks of something being right or wrong, they are immediately labeled as being extremist, or, at the least iconoclastic or fundamentalist. Now, for example, though I am of one faith, I have friends of a number of others, quite dissimilar, some varied Eastern religions, some neo-Pagan (in the US, I believe most refer to themselves as Wiccan), some various types of Christian, some Jewish, some non-believers. However, I would venture a guess that every single one of us would say that human sacrifice is wrong. Somehow, I do believe, that right and wrong perhaps are not determined by externalities, such as philosophies or religion, but by some sort of internal "wiring" if you will.

At any rate, I truly enjoyed "The Wickerman". I only wish that more movies provoked the sort of thought and engendered the sort of discussion this intense, passionate film does.

[noblerot]

 
But does that make Summerisle "evil?"  I don't know.  That makes him a danger to the mainstream culture (and individuals);  but does it make him 'evil?"  Once again, I don't know.

Mark Twain used to say that it was the Moral Sense that allowed men to do evil, that even God did not want us to develop it as evidenced in the story of Adam and Eve. We've been punished for it ever since and still we highly value our morality. We wonder whether or not fictional characters are evil and frequently demand that the "evil" ones get what's due in the end. We're into judging and condemning and we feel good when we do it. But Mark Twain also said (I believe it was about his wife) that she was so good, so saintly, that she even had a kind word for the devil.

To me, the people of Summerisle are natural. They aren't ashamed of their bodies or their sexuality. They do not seem encumbered with a Moral Sense. Perhaps that makes them innocent.

[noblerot]

[quote]

At any rate, I truly enjoyed "The Wickerman". I only wish that more movies provoked the sort of thought and engendered the sort of discussion this intense, passionate film does.

I agree. But I'm afraid more people are looking for reaffirmation of their beliefs than thought stimulation.