Dooku really a villain?

Juan Aneiros · 22nd May 2002, 01:42 AM

Having seen the film 6 times now, I am not so sure Dooku is a really a villain. BTW, digital is much better than analogue. Here is why:

1. He could have killed Obi-Wan in three occasions, but he chose not to. Yes, Anakin stopped him on one but he could have easily faked his real intention.

2. He tells Obi-Wan the Republic is being controlled by the Sith. Why say that and give the Dark side's plans away. He says, "Join me Obi-Wan and together we will defeat the Sith". Since the Sith can only have one apprentice at the time, it would be pointless for Dooku to make that offer to Obi-Wan and specially since he is not so powerful.

3. The look in his face when he chopped Anakin's arm is that of pity and remorse. I think he did not intend to do that.

4. Before he faced Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, his pilot was ready to depart. He was arrogant and confident he could kill them. But if so, what was his hurry?

5. When he says, "Mace Windu", looks to me that they are both on the same side. Why didn't either of them go to kill each other? Who erased the planet form the computer?

I know who the Lord Sith is, Christina asked him straight out. He said yes, but then had a smile on his face that give the impression of. saying. Your daddy is not who you think he is. BTW it was not Mr Lee who said that but the actual Lord Sith himself, who shall remain nameless.

I guess that since Mr Lee won't deny it or say anything about it, we might be in for a real shocker in EpIII.

Theories say that Dooku will be betrayed by the Sith and Anakin take his place. I'm not so sure, Dooku maybe someone's father.

At this time, Lucas can end the story of Dooku as he wishes but I also think that Mace is a dark horse. There is more to that character than meets the eye.

"A disillusioned Jedi" Why that and not someone who turned to the dark side?

**Susan Pitcher** · 22nd May 2002, 03:05 PM

My guess is that maybe Dooku was thrust into the apprentice role to replace Darth Maul, and he's none too happy about it. There was a lot to absorb on the first viewing of AoTC, so we'll probably have it well dissected while waiting for EpIII (and we have the chance to view this one a few more times at least).

I think you're right that there was some conflict involved in Dooku's actions (shades of Vader's own, perhaps). Besides, Dooku could probably kick the Emperor's butt anytime, but maybe he just doesn't have the impetus to do it yet.

**Domenick Fraumeni** · 24th May 2002, 10:59 PM

I believe that Dooku's actions are governed by his overwhelming frustration with the Republic and the Jedi council's decisions. That, and the death of Qui-Gon, which with foresight might have been averted, pushed him over to align with Sidious. Btw, isn't it coincidental that Sifidious, the name of the Jedi who ordered the clones, and Sidious are very similiar? Hmmmm.

I do think that Dooku may be looking to betray Sidious in the end. But he is responsible for the death of many Jedi and looked pretty much as if he was going to kill Obi-Wan.

Do keep in mind, that he was not the only one to leave the Jedi order. 20 left in all, whose busts can be seen in the Jedi library in the film. Unfortunately, Lucas cut the scene where Obi-Wan hears about the lost 20. Shame, really.

Still, he may be a surprise in the next chapter. There was some information over at theforce.net I had read that seemed to indicate that all was not as it seemed with him.

Chaos Mage · 24th May 2002, 11:20 PM

I actually know the answers to some of these questions, but I don't want to spoil Episode 3 for anybody. Especially since it won't be out until 2005.

If you want to know the Episode 3 spoilers though, just go to www.supershadow.com and you can find out all the shocking details.

Rest assured, everything you've ever wondered about the Sith will be fully explored in the next movie.

Chaos Mage · 24th May 2002, 11:25 PM

Oh man! They started charging money for it!!!

I can't believe it. It used to be free info. That really sucks. They had a lot of detail on Episode 3 that was really good.

I know it must be true too, because a year before Episode 2 came out they had the entire plot synopsis on their site, and when I saw the movie it was 90% accurate.

Unfortunately, I refuse to pay them any money just to read it again. I already remember most of it anyway.

Sorry about that folks.

Merrymoll · 26th May 2002, 04:22 PM

So I wasn't the only one who noticed that expression of regret on Dooku's face when he aputates Anakin's arm!

'Course, he could be just disappointed that the fight's over, but I don't think so. In the novelisation, Dooku feels geniunely impressed by Anakin's skill, and probably regrets having to badly injure such a promising young warrior.

As to whether he's a baddie or not:

I think that Dooku could be seeking revenge for his old Padawan Qui Gon's death at the hands of Sidious' appretnice, Maul (remember, he left the Jedi Order ten years before the events of Episode II - the time immediately after Qui Gon was killed...). Perhaps he's joined Sidious merely to find out all he can about him and use the information against the Sith Lord, like a double agent, if you will. Perhaps the regretful look is his true feelings coming through about hurting his former allies in order to keep up the pretense...

The plot thickens. Hurry up Lucas, and get Episode III going!!

mwshams · 27th May 2002, 09:53 PM

You really have to see the movie more than once to pick up on the little tidbits that are dropped. I don't believe that Count Dooku knows that Sidious is Palpatine. And who knows who ordered the clone army? Probably Sidious since it is Palpatine who takes over the Republic and turns it into the Empire. So many things could happen in the next movie. I have always thought the actors and characters who played the darkside are much better than the good guys. I would love to see alot more dialogue between Dooku and Sidious in the next movie. And perhaps a great showdown in the end. I can't wait.

Say · 29th May 2002, 02:52 AM

Here's my take on the whole Sidious/Dooku thing.

First of all, I believe that Dooku is indeed Sid's apprentice - in the movie, he says "master" in a very deferential way, and there are various signs all through that he's genuinely attached to him. The relationship doesn't seem to me to be the kind of lapdog/hired muscle relationship Palpatine has going on with Maul and Vader - there is genuine respect between the two.

Secondly, I don't think it's likely that either one will betray the other. The way things stand at the moment, the Republic and Jedi Council have pretty much passed the point of no return. Either the Seperatists will win the upcoming war - in which case Dooku becomes ruler of the galaxy, and Sid can take a secret "advisory" role, or the Republic will win the upcoming war - in which case Palpatine/Sid can make more and more anti-terrorist and wartime laws, further consolidating his own power, and Dooku can take a behind-the-scenes role. (Of course, based on the Holy Trilogy, the Republic wins - complete with lots of restrictive laws - and becomes the Empire, with the Senate only being disolved by the time of ANH. Presumably Dooku dies along the road somewhere.) Either way, even if Dooku started the Separatist movement without Sid's influence, it's a win/win situation for both of them if they stick together.

Secondly, on the apprentice front . . . according to Yoda there can only be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. There is no indication, however, of how many *tools* the Sith Lord can have. Maul struck me as a tool more than anything else, as does Vader - neither are any too bright, neither seem to have much purpose other than hired muscle. Dooku, on the other hand, seems like a genuine ally who is useful on many levels. That fits the apprentice role far more than any other Dark Jedi.

If I'm right, then, and Vader wasn't truly Sid/Palpers' apprentice, that can be easily explained. Anakin at one point says he wants to become so powerful that he can prevent people from dying. If Palpers/Sid hears about that, then it would make sense for him to take on Anakin as a tool - a tool with the soul purpose of making him immortal. With that goal, an apprentice is no longer necessary, and may even be dangerous.

Dooku is remarkably truthful throughout AotC. He is - for the most part - fairly open about what he's doing. I haven't read the novelisation yet, but I have it on good authority that his reasons for choosing the Dark Side are also very sound - that he rationally thought through it, rather than just not being able to control himself, Vaderkin style.

Add that to what the Jedi actually *do* in Episode Two. Look at Obi Wan in particular, when he's on Kamino. He has absolutely no legal authority there - Kamino is not a Republic world, and there was no indication it had much in the way of treaties with the Republic. Even so, despite having nothing more than very vague circumstantial evidence against Jango Fett, he still tries to arrest him - not just arrest him, but pulls a weapon on him.

Look at Anakin. He arrives on Geonosis, and instead of speaking to someone in charge, he sneaks in the back. When the locals take issue with the fact that he just wandered into their world without so much as a visa, what does he do? He attacks them, and kills or injures quite a lot.

When he, Padme, and Obi Wan are being "executed" (in inverted commas because IMO the executions were meant to fail, and Palpatine and Dooku had the whole thing planned out), they were being *legallY* punished by the *sovereign government* of that world. A load of Jedi turn up, and apparently without the legal right to do so, start laying the smack down.

All throughout Episode II, the Jedi behave in a might (or rather sabre) makes right manner. Dooku does *nothing* that the Jedi Order didn't teach him to do - he uses his special skills in the Force to control and manipulate others.

(Btw, I won't be looking for info about Episode 3 . . . IMO it's far more enjoyable to keep everything as a total surprise - I managed to stay completely spoiler free for Episode 2, and I'm glad of it. Also, speculation like this is more enjoyable to me than actually knowing what's going on. And oh yeah, I'm new here *waves*)

VADER 7 · 19th June 2002, 09:25 PM

YES I THINK DOOKU IS A VILLAIN. AFER ALL HE IS A SITH LORD.

KEVIN SKEWES

Jurious · 19th June 2002, 10:54 PM

Quote: Dooku is remarkably truthful throughout AotC.

True. The reason he revealed about the Sith, IMO, is to create the mistrust Yoda mentioned at the end. By revealing it he may have, infact, increased the Jedis' sceptism of a Sith Lord existing in their government. :P

I think Dooku was evil. He had turned to the Darkside for good reasons, and saw that he could bring Order to the crumbling Republic through helping Sidious. There's perhaps more to it than that, but hey! :D

Anyway, how could you explain him watching all those Jedi die in the arena if he hadn't turned? And remorse for lobbing off Ani's arm? Pah... no, I think he was just a lil exhausted from the rapid, skillful battle he had just participated in!

Hail Lord Tyranus! Sith to the end!

Say · 19th June 2002, 11:55 PM

Why *should* he be concerned about those Jedi who died in the arena? They were pretty much an invading army. Anakin, Amidala, and Obi Wan all pretty clearly broke local laws and were being executed for such.

That seems a typical Jedi MO, btw - I'm not seeing how Yoda's use of the Clones could be described as anything other than a pure and simple invasion. At that time, the Jedi Council didn't have much reason to attack Geonosis . . . all they had was the *possibility* that Jango Fett was involved in an assassination attempt, and the knowledge that a *spy* had been arrested by the proper local authorities.

As for Dooku's truthfulness . . . yes, I think it likely that part of the reason why he told Obi Wan so much of the truth was precisely because he wouldn't believe it . . . but . . .

Near the start of the film, Mace Windu insists that Dooku's character is still true to the Jedi. By the end of the film, the only real new knowledge Yoda has is that Dooku is a Sith. Does he say, "Sith he is, but well dude, I know him, I trained him, he's mah boy"? Nope. He says, "Dude, that guy in the beard tells lies!"

The only reason I can see for Yoda completely losing his faith in Dooku is that Dooku, as a Sith, is now a member of a different religion . . . and a simple religious conversion causes Yoda to insist that Dooku's way is now spreading lies and deceit.

And people still wonder why the Sith seem so pissed off the whole time? The Jedi order is not, methinks, the perfect example of good and justice that it's cracked up to be.

Old Soul · 20th June 2002, 03:46 AM

I think that Count Dooku may be a double agent sent a long time ago in infiltrate the Sith and keep an eye on him.

He may have to do what he needs to do to keep his cover, but it doesn

Nilredwen · 20th June 2002, 05:09 AM

I really like Old Soul's idea of Dooku being a double agent! It fits with some of my initial impressions of how Mr. Lee played the part. He seemed to be very regretful about things and never really gloated about any of the killings. When he was talking with the captive Obi Wan I almost got the impression he was trying to tell him something else hidden between the lines even. (But maybe I'm reading too much into that scene)

At any rate, it is fascinating to read all of your varied theories on this topic! Very enjoyable and if Lucas is using one of them it will certainly make for a very exciting Episode III and a lot for Mr. Lee to do (which is a wonderful thing in and of itself)

**David Vasser** · 20th June 2002, 08:01 AM

Well, as I've said before a distressing amount of really bad, awful and nasty things simply must happen in E3. It is going to be ever so tragic. The twins must be separated. Anakin who is nearly killed by the hand of his own master must wind up a walking iron lung who turns his back on his pregnant wife and the Jedi Council. Every single Jedi, save Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin must die, including all those cute little Padawans. Entire civilizations, governments and perhaps even entire planets must crumble. Padme Skywalker must be exiled eternally to some far flung secret corner of the galaxy never to return. So far this sounds absolutely depressing. We know it all has to happen though.

There has to be something in this film that is uplifting, something that gives at least a glimmer of hope. I think it will be Dooku. I believe Juan hit on two critical points when he examined the relationship between Windu and Dooku and wrote, "looks to me that they are both on the same side. Why didn't either of them go to kill each other? Who erased the planet from the computer?" The double agent theory from Old Soul is as good a bet as any.

There is more to Dooku's character and upcoming role in E3 than we can possibly guess. Things happened in E2 I would never have guessed. Mr. Lucas is a master storyteller. He would not dare conclude this thirty plus year series which is the jewel of his career without ending the Prequel Trilogy so that it neatly ties into E4. He also would not end the Saga without giving it a fitting balance. The film simply can't be all bad news and Dark Side victories.

Something good has to happen in E3. Obi-Wan and Yoda surviving in exile does not seem uplifting enough to me. There has to be something more positive, some redeeming moral message to put a period at the end of the sentence that is the thirty years of Mr. Lucas's life which is wrapped up in this project. He will not let STAR WARS go out with a weak whimper. E3 will go out with an emotional bang. Part of that bang is almost certain to come from Count Dooku.

Jurious · 20th June 2002, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Well, as I've said before a distressing amount of really bad, awful and nasty things simply must happen in E3. It is going to be ever so tragic. [/b]

Mr.Lucas has said that he fears that some people may not like Ep.III because it will be so dark, but I think that people are truly fascinated by evil and its seductive qualities - if anything, Ep.III could be the most popular.

Quote:

There has to be something in this film that is uplifting, something that gives at least a glimmer of hope. I think it will be Dooku. [/b]

LOL - well, who wasn't uplifted when Mr.Lee made his AOTC entrance? I grinned as soon as Jango mentioned 'Tyranus'. :D

Quote:

There is more to Dooku's character and upcoming role in E3 than we can possibly guess. Things happened in E2 I would never have guessed. Mr. Lucas is a master storyteller.

The film simply can't be all bad news and Dark Side victories.

Mr.Lucas is one of the great storytellers of all time. How he ever conceived the Star Wars saga, I will never know!

The film is gonna have an awful lot of Darkside victories. Of course, there must be something uplifting in it - and as you said, Dooku it may be...

Quote:

[b]Originally posted by BrotherDave
E3 will go out with an emotional bang. Part of that bang is almost certain to come from Count Dooku.

Indeed, it will be. But, unfortunately, yet inevitably, he will be part of that big bang, and meet his end... :(