Questions on LOTR book and Tolkien - Mr Lee will answer them

[Josephina]

Alas we need 50 posts to be able to ask questions, I do not even come close , deep sigh .

Hope fans who will ask the questions will ask those I am so burning to find answers too , have fun everyone.

[Juan Aneiros]

If I see your name again on printed paper, I think I'll go blind;) You must have asked about 15 questions all together and very lucky to have got an answer to most of them.:1devil:

[Josephina]

I do go nuts and have many more questions , but, if I asked 15 questions, how come I only have 6 posts ???? and no I am not trying to get my 50 posts , honestly :frostyang

[Jill]

Since I don't have 50 posts yet, I can't ask Mr. Lee any questions yet, but I wanted to respond to Neil's question re: the critics' reactions to Tolkien, since I myself am a real literary critic (ahem), and a long-time Tolkien fan myself.

Writers like Tolkien are probably responsible for my devotion to literature as a profession, so I'm non-apologetic to anybody (professional critics or the amateur variety) about my love of Tolkien's work. Critics like Edmund Wilson (OOH, those Awful Orcs!) that Mr. Lee refers to in his reply are indeed wrapped up in their own little tenure-track minds. In my own experience, I can honestly say that I myself have encountered such critics (especially the British ones--whew!), and my own professional opinion of them is that in order to build up themselves and their reputations as critics, they either tear the objects of their criticism down or else lay such a load of honey-coated unqualified flattery in their panagyrics that you could get diabetes just reading them. Elsewhere in this forum I addressed the criticism that Mr. Lee received from one British critic who said that Mr. Lee was "competent." Some of you saw that as an insult. That critic probably thought it was complimentary, which is why I posted a carefully worded message in which I stated that critics who don't really help the artists they're criticizing, aren't really doing their jobs. Now, I could have written a private email to Neil to respond to him, but since the question of critics has come up and Mr. Lee himself has responded to it, because I am a literary critic, I would like to criticize the critics myself, as well as defend the ones who make my profession worthwhile.

Mr. Lee said that those who can't do, are critics. Well, I would like to qualify that statement, since it is taken from the context of the old saying, "those who can't do, teach." Critics should also be teachers, and their job is to evaluate the works of artists. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't recommend either of these jobs to anybody with an ounce of sensitivity. Art needs criticism, just as critics need artists--I believe it was Jonathan Culler, another real literary critic, who points out that it is a symbiotic relationship. However, as Harold Bloom has pointed out recently, the literary profession (and the critical profession in general) has effectively committed suicide by the very kind of practices you all have been discussing in the forum. If you think their criticisms of artists like Tolkien is severe, you should see they way their cannibalize their own students and other potential critical writers! I got a review from a couple of readers of one of my dissertation chapters that was so hurtful, that I doubt if I'll ever get over the pain of it, and those were British literary professionals, supposedly. It is soul-destroying to read such things, yet these critics delight in their own cruelty and what they believe, as Mr. Lee points out, to be their own witty genius in responding in such a way; they revel in their itinerate snobbery. Mr. Lee very correctly states that such critics are in no way really doing their jobs of criticizing, but rather, are engaged in attacks for their own personal reasons. The critic's job should be to objectively demonstrate both the good and the bad in such a way as to instruct through the trial and error of the reviewee, the same thing that a teacher should do in the classroom. Tolkien was both a writer and a teacher, a linguist and philologist of prodigious skill in creating his own literary worlds. Some of the critics point out certain problems with the structure of LOTR (several chapters devoted to the hobbits' adventure with Tom Bombadil, rambling), and Tolkien's apparent dislike of allegory, even though he uses it (he was one of the most prominent translators of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, after all, so to say that it wouldn't affect his own style would be to ignore his text and take, rather, Tolkien's statement about allegory as a strict gospel). The point is that Tolkien was a writer, a critic, an editor, and a teacher, which is what most professors have to do nowadays to be competitive in the field. Despite Wilson's criticisms of Tolkien, even Wilson admitted that he loved reading Tolkien's writing. Tolkien's literary power is his storytelling ability, that ability to both express and describe people, places, and things in order to give his audience an imagery, a world that we can see in our minds. As for myself, years ago when I was a Master's candidate I considered doing a thesis on Tolkien's Silmarillion, only to get the idea shot down very quickly, with the blunt but realistic criticism that as part of a fantasy subgenre, it was far too non-canonical to be considered for serious scholarship. There you have it, folks: the reason I had to wait so long to get back to the literature that very possibly was the very reason I got into the profession in the first place. Frodo lives!:frostyang

[Juan Aneiros]

LOL. You asked a few in each post.

[Josephina]

:o :o :o yes figured that out later

:D slow mind

hey, you have 316 posts, can I borrow say 42 of them :D

Yes ????? :D

ai, probably not, do not want you to go blind ;)

Jill :) very nice post on critics. I know very little of this difficult profession ,but, do believe to never put another down no matter how you dislike the work/artist you cover, that can be done tactful, and yes, you seem to have the correct approach which is rare I think,

keep up the great work, it is a hard job to comment on other peoples works/artists I think when you must cover all aspects, ai, you tried the Silmarillion, very hard task in my view, researching it is incredible complex and sorry you got hurt, always sad to hear how other people can put others down so harshly. keep courage, you sound like a great person and as I said, you have that rare approach to this profession, be one of those who keeps it on a higher level, to out do those who abuse their tasks.

I hope I worded this correct. hope you know what I mean ;)

[Juan Aneiros]

Getting to 50 is less that 12 hours would be a miracle. You'll just have to be patient and wait until the following month when things will get much more interesting. The only reason it's done, is so that Mr. Lee can cope with a manageable amount of questions. 15, he can do every month without any problems.

The day after the London Premiere, you won't even need to ask. He'll probably be in such a hype, he won't stop talking. As a matter of fact, we'll all be. I'm not really a film fan, but after seeing that new trailer and hearing LOTR from Mr. Lee for a very long time, I won't miss it for anything in the World.

Regarding Jill's comments, both professions are very lonely ones. A friendly discussion off the record, I'm sure will clear a lot of negative feelings from both sides.

[Josephina]

I mean, it should be for questions , right ???

The only reason I know Mr Lee and any other actors within these movies, I must admit, is because I am into JRR Tolkiens works, researching them and much more for my own project,( have been for over three years now ), and the only reason I am interested in these movies, because they will bring one of my favorite books to life , the only reason I even considered entering the world of computers is because of these movies , other than that, hardly watch TV, let alone go to the cinema and I never read magazines and hardly touch the newspaper. for me it is all Tolkien related only. I am impressed with you however, covering a site for an actor even though you are not a movie person. that strikes me as very interesting.

I am not alloud to get 50 posts in 12 hours , so it was requested, and I am not coming here on purpose to do this at all, but, sure are interesting conversations. I may yet become a regular :)

Yes I can imagine Christopher Lee will be so happy once these movies come out so he can let him self out fully with out having to restrain himself , cannot wait, oh, my hearts disire goes with him to be here in three years in full glory and to then even fuller express himself.

my wish for him for sure.

thanks for allowing me to get a few more posts ;)

[Jill]

Josephina, I assume that you were writing part of your message to me? I know it may seem that this is off-topic, but I was responding to a question somebody had posed to Mr. Lee and his subsequent response on realtime; I just assumed it was ok to respond here. If not, that's fine, we can continue on a new thread.

If you were talking to me, to answer your question, I am a full-time lecturer in English Literature at the University of Alabama. I also write critical articles on film studies, and one-third of my dissertation covered Fritz Lang's 1926 film, Metropolis (hence, the robot-Maria icon at left). I successfully defended in March 2001, and graduated with my PhD in English in May 2001. I, too, am a long-time Tolkien fan, and I wanted to address the question because academics, particularly professional critics, are often sorely misunderstood, and since somebody had asked the question of why certain critics attacked Tolkien's work. I thought Mr. Lee's response was thoughtful and insightful; I just wanted to add my two-cents worth.
Best Regards, Dr. Jill Clark

[Josephina]

Dr Jill Clark, I was responding to your post as a post , sorry, had not a clue that there was so much more involved, it sounded interesting and I was interested in its content, I suppose I should just have left it alone as it was well over my head. But I admired your input and comments and I am always eager to learn new things.

Critisism is a very hard field to get into and anything involved with that kind of job and I think you have to have a certain type of insight and personality to be able to do that kind of approach successfully and I felt it sounded like you did just that, You mentioned your success story in your next post and confirmed to me that it is a fact. I hope I did not offend you or anyone else during my comments, I did not mean to if I did, and I do appologize.

I must learn to stay out of affairs I do not understand in full.

I hope you keep having the success in all you undertake.

------------------

Admin ????????????? I am very confused on this site, I started a thread ????? how did I do that, I thought I just commented and posted. and I keep getting Emails from this site telling me there are responses and I try to find them and cannot. all in all,

HELP !!!! I am very very lost !!!! I am lucky I found Dr Jill Clark to appologize and explain my post to her , but cannot find a person named Grace to see what was written there !!!!!

all in all, how can I learn to find my way around this site effeciently enough ?????

Josephina said:

Admin ????????????? I am very confused on this site, I started a thread ????? how did I do that, I thought I just commented and posted. and I keep getting Emails from this site telling me there are responses and I try to find them and cannot. all in all,  

HELP !!!! I am very very lost !!!! I am lucky I found Dr Jill Clark to appologize and explain my post to her , but cannot find a person named Grace to see what was written there !!!!!

If I may butt in uninvited, when you participate in a thread, you get the notification as soon as someone responds. However, the person's post doesn't appear until the Admin or a moderator gets online, reads it, and puts it through. We try to keep up -- really, but we're volunteers with jobs and housework and slovenly habits like sleep. ;)

I do feel sorry for people who post and don't know why their post doesn't appear right away, but it protects the community (which includes minors) from abusive posts, as well as the Lees from libelous, infringing, and illegal posts.

Just love us and be a little patient, and we'll be one big, happy family. :)

[Josephina]

Glad you came and explained, yipes, what a job you all have, did not know that is how posts appeared here, now if I can find my way about I may be hopeful, thank you and all the best of luck with that enormous task. ai. ( will try to keep my posts to a limit and short as I can manage ) Yes do get the rest you need for sure ;)

thank you Rebecca.

[Juan Aneiros]

It's all my fault:embarass: I'm the baby of the family and have split the thread in half, then moved it to here so you continue your discussion . By doing that, Josephina's post ended up being the first in the thread. Two minutes here and I'm already causing caos.:spin2: Sorry for breaking the flow.

[Josephina]

ah so it was devided and placed elsewhere then , and that is why I ended up being the author, even if I was not , getting clearer and clearer, feeling less and less lost.

I sure hope I can clear my misunderstanding with Dr Jill Clark too and I will feel much better still and I have yet to find Grace, lost this post totally for some reason.

thanks for bearing with me. hope to see you again soon.

Namarie

for Admin and Rebecca

:D :1roll: :frostyang :D

good luck with your very demanding job here on this unique site

[Jill]

Hi Josephina: Think nothing of it. You were right to note that it is a forum for asking Mr. Lee questions on LOTR; I just felt compelled to point out that there are good and bad critics, and literary critics in particular have their special functions, in reference to Mr. Lee's responses on the subject. You haven't offended me; on the contrary, you gave me an opportunity to clear up an issue that had been gnawing at me since the previous posts on that other critic (can't think of his name; it's amazing how quickly we can blot such things from our minds, hmmm?).

By the way, I noticed that somebody mentioned that fact that you're on Imladris.net. I am, too, but I don't post there very often anymore because I find the literary discussions to be misinformed and trite, due to an overindulgent tendency of fanaticism. I go by the name of "River Daughter" there, and I stopped posting mainly because I grew tired of being told that a certain thread there was devoted to the worship of Frodo, when it's titled as a movie cast discussion thread. I don't think it's a good thing to worship any artist or character, whether it's Mr. Lee or Mr. Tolkien or Frodo, which is why I keep a respectful distance and admire their work from afar. They deserve their privacy. Character worship reminds me too much of those weirdos who write mash letters to Lara Croft!!!!